Protesters are demanding to “defund the police.” Mayors are vowing to cut police budgets.
Congressional Democrats are rallying around broad legislation to combat police misconduct. Senate Republicans tapped the only black lawmaker in their ranks to draft a conservative response. And more than two weeks after the killing of George Floyd in police custody, President Donald Trump plans to address policing at an event in Texas on Thursday.
Public opinion around how the police treat black Americans is shifting — fast.
In the middle of it all is Kamala Harris. The California senator, who is widely seen as a leading contender to be Joe Biden’s running mate, has taken on a prominent role fighting for a criminal justice overhaul. Harris is arguing that her experience as a prosecutor — which was a liability for her during the Democratic presidential primary race — gives her firsthand insight into changing a broken system.
The New York Times spoke to Harris about the shifting politics of policing, the importance of smartphone video and, of course, the vice presidency. (The conversation has been edited and condensed.)
Hi. Thanks for chatting today. You are the second black female senator in the country’s history. What does this moment feel like for you, personally?
I mentor a lot of people. I will say to them that you will often find that you are the only one who looks like you in the room, be it around the conference table or in a meeting or wherever you are. But the thing to remember is you are never in that room alone. We are all in that room with you, expecting that you will use your voice, and use it with pride and use it in a way that represents all of those who are in the room with you but not physically there. It is part of the way that I approach my work and always have.
I’ve been in that situation for most of my career, as only the second black woman in the United States who was elected an attorney general of any state. I was the first black woman elected district attorney in the state of California. So it’s not a new experience. Sadly, we are still making so many firsts.
President Barack Obama, Oprah Winfrey and other prominent black figures in America have talked about being profiled. Have you had that experience of, say, being followed in a department store?
Yes. And my family members have, too. But I just have to tell you, I’m really sick of having to explain my experiences with racism to people for them to understand that it exists.
Why do you think people want to hear that kind of personal testimonial?
I don’t know. I don’t know why people keep asking the question. Maybe it’s because they really are still head-in-the-sand and coming to terms with the realities of America on the issue of race.
Do you think we’re having a moment where the politics around this issue is starting to shift?
I’ve been out there with the protesters. I feel very optimistic when I see who is out there. I very much think of this as not a moment but a movement.
And there’s a specific thing that is different about this, and that is the significance of smartphones. I will tell you that probably over the last 10 years, my white friends would come up to me and say, “Kamala, what is going on all of a sudden with all this excessive force?” And I would say to them, “You sound like a colonist.” Because you’re seeing it for the first time, you think you’ve discovered it.
Communities — and in particular the black community — have been shouting and crying, mothers over their dead children’s bodies, been crying in deep pain about these things. But people turned a blind eye or they didn’t believe it or they didn’t want to believe it. But now, because of the smartphone, America and the world are seeing in vivid detail the brutality that communities have known for generations.
You can’t deny. You can’t look away. It’s there. I do believe people are seeing the injustice of it all and are prepared to take action in a way that we’ve not seen before. And that gives me hope.
Of course, in Congress, that involves getting Republican support for legislation.
Right, it does. But look at Mitt Romney — God love him — out there marching, and had the courage and the fortitude and the humanity to speak the phrase: Black Lives Matter.
Are there any other Senate Republicans who you believe could work with you?
There are a number. Honestly, the concern I have is just that, once again, the politics of fear. You see Donald Trump starting that up. It’s a playbook that has worked over and over again, which is to present false choices, suggesting that if we have real change, if we shake up the system in a way that is about reimagining it and re-establishing norms based on what should be, chaos will occur. And I hope that my colleagues are immune and see it for what it is.
The anti-lynching legislation that you first introduced in 2018 was blocked by Sen. Rand Paul last week. How should voters view his opposition to that bill?
We are still, these hundreds of years later, having an argument in the United States Senate about whether lynching should be designated a federal crime. It speaks to the fact that we still have so much work to do, to not only acknowledge the history of our country but also acknowledge that we have yet to fully embrace, much less address, the systemic racism that has existed in America and the fact that black lives, in particular, have been legally, historically and currently been considered as less than human.
So, tell me about the legislation you introduced this week, the Justice in Policing Act of 2020.
In the context of everything we’re discussing, it is but one piece of it all. It is very specific and it is about police accountability. It is about making sure that there’s accountability and consequence when people break the rules and break the law. It lowers the standard of criminal intent for an officer who has violated the constitutional rights of people. It gives the Department of Justice and state AGs more power to investigate entire police departments for patterns and practices of discrimination.
Also, it’s about independent investigation. I know as a former prosecutor, no matter how well-intentioned the prosecutor may be when investigating the case of abuse or excessive force by a police officer, if that police officer works for an agency that you work with every day, at the very least there will be an appearance of conflict. Independent investigations would be required.
Can I ask you about this idea of defunding the police? What’s your thinking on that idea?
Well, it’s a concept. We do have to reimagine what public safety looks like. And here’s the thing. It is status quo thinking to believe that putting more police on the streets creates more safety. That’s wrong. It’s just wrong. You know what creates more safety? Funding public schools, affordable housing, increased homeownership, job skill development, jobs, access to capital for those who want to start small businesses, or who are running small businesses in communities.
But, no, we’re not going to get rid of the police. We all have to be practical. But let’s separate out these discussions.
Many cities in our country spend one-third of their entire budget on policing. With all the responsibilities those cities have, one-third on policing? Put it in the context of the fact that over the last many decades, we have essentially been defunding public schools. If anyone thinks that the way we’re going to cure these problems is by putting more police on the street, they’re wrong.
As you mentioned, you were San Francisco’s district attorney and the attorney general of California, roles that became a bit of a liability in your primary campaign. Do you regret starting your political career that way?
Let me tell you, the reason I made a very conscious decision to become a prosecutor was because I am the child of people who, like those today, were marching and shouting on the streets for justice. I am a child of community that was often on the not-great end of law enforcement, in terms of profiling and abuse. And the decision I made was, “I’m going to try and go inside the system, where I don’t have to ask permission to change what needs to be changed.”
But one of the differences between then and now is the incredible leadership of Black Lives Matter, and that movement. Which put the pressure from the outside to counteract the obstacles from the inside that were not only reluctant to change but opposed to change.
I don’t regret it because I know we were able to make a change, but it certainly was not enough.
I will get a lot of angry emails if I don’t ask about your vice presidential prospects. I am curious whether you think the calculation has changed. Does America need to see a black woman in the White House with Joe Biden, given what’s going on in the country?
I’m going to tell you what I honestly and deeply believe. Joe Biden has got to win this election. And I want him to choose whoever he believes, and whoever can help him win. Period. I know that sounds pretty coldblooded, but that’s where I am.
He’ll make the best decision for him to win in November. And that’s the bottom line.
Lisa Lerer c.2020 The New York Times Company
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